Canadian Infantry facing colours 1920s & 30s

I have managed to obtain a copy of the 1932 dress regulations but these lack reference to the individual infantry and cavalry units of the period. Later I got hold of the information on the cavalry but still cannot find the infantry information. I lack detail of mess type and colours, full dress type and colours, puggaree colours, and so forth.
Can anyone help?

Hi Sean, I did a brief search on the web and I could only come up with the current branch colors and not the 1930s.

I have a friend who is like a total expert on British/Commonwealth rank insignia, uniform details, etc and I will ask him. Also, have you tried contacting the folks at this website: http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/ ?

Thanks for the response.
I did post a question on the excellent canadiansoldiers site, but no response.
I have a feeling I'm going to have to go to Canada to try and find the detail, probably in Militia or General Orders from the time.
It'll be a hard trip but someone has to do it!.

Sean

Hi Sean - there was a website (now sadly defunct) which had colour prints of about 50 Canadian militia regiments of all branches prior to 1914. I cunningly managed to download and save these - not exactly the period that you are interested in but where full dress did survive between the Wars it would presumably have been the same model of that worn pre-1914. Glad to email a selection to you if they would be of interest.

You probably have the book by Murray Telford "Scarlet to Green" covering the uniforms worn by two militia regiments the Grey Regiment and the Simcoe Foresters (merged in 1936). This contains photographs and discriptions of the inter-war mess and blue dress uniforms of the two units. Interestingly one picture is of the Simcoe Foresters as mobilised in August 1914 for local protective duties - in the scarlet tunics of the peacetime parade ground!

Rowin

Rowin,
That sounds excellent. Email uniformsotw@yahoo.com.au
I have the Scarlet to Green book and its that one which makes me think there were many other variations on the full and mess dress theme for the infantry, like the 22Regt's light blue puggaree.
Thanks for the help.

The 1932 Dress Regulations were never finished and the Infantry portion remained incomplete. To determine the facing colours you would have to go back to the 1907 Dress regs and then work through Militia Orders to follow the various mergers of regiments as they were re-organized in the 1920s and '30s.
I have made the study of Canadian uniforms my specialty for the past 30 years so please contact me if I can be of service.I have also published a number of books on Canadian uniformology. Check out www.servicepub.com

Clive

Thank you for your input, I have several of your publications and highly recommend them to anyone interested in Canadian and British uniforms.
I have no access to Canadian Militia Orders so any help in that regard would be greatly appreciated.
I suppose that most wore blue facings with few exceptions.
Were their many infantry units that deviated from the norm with their mess dress?
I have enjoyed your comments on the Canadian soldiers forum, I hope you enjoy this one.

Blue facings, insofar as Infantry was concerned, was limited to "Royal" regiments. I don't understand your comment that the R22eR (Vandoos) wear a light blue pugarree. The Vandoos wear a bearskin cap (although with a cap badge affixed to the front in the style of a Fusiliers regiment) and not a pugarreed Wolseley helmet.

Cheers,

Clive

My apologies I meant the light blue/grey facings of the PPCLI.
I have seen the Ogilby files on the Canadian Army and they showed a very interesting drawing of the Queen's York Rangers in the early 1940s. Green with purple facings. Green puggaree on the Wolesley helmet.
Another notation had a white puggaree for an infantry regiment fromMontreal.
There are obviously many variations on a theme, with unit distinctions that can only be found from material in Canada. Unfortunately I can't get there to see it.
The CD on RCAF dress regulations looks very interesting, have you thought of doing the same for the Army?
I have managed to do the Australian Army regulations up to the 1970s so I know its a lot of work, but satisfying.

Hi Sean. What are the Ogilby files? I don't know of these. My current project is 200 years of Canadian Military Headdress (www.servicepub.com/headdress.htm) and the question of pugarree colours is near and dear to my heart. A white pug on a Wolseley is most likely the Royal Montreal Regiment but documentation on this is very difficult to locate. With the state of our army over the past 40 years hardly anyone wears full dress (no CF funds so total reliance on regimental funds) and this makes it even more difficult to research through contemporary colour photos. Even the PPCLI can be problematic as, initially, they wore the French Grey pug, as a commemoration of the French grey formation path worn during the First World War, without official sanction and had to remove it. When they did get permission the PPCLI chose to limit the coloured pug to ORs only and officers, to this day, wear a white pugarree.

The Army Museums Ogilby Trust was set up to keep military history humming in the UK. It is now solely concerned with the upkeep and augmentation of military museums around Britain. In the past it also served as something of a repository for information, primarily on British forces but also on Imperial and Commonwealth nations. For example the Benson-Freeman papers are included in this. In 1911 he sent out a questionnaire to all units of the Empire asking for details about the unit. The responses were patchy to say the least but some very interesting data is held, particularly on the South African military.
The collections has 20 box ( large shoe box sized) on the Canadian army. There is little information in it but some very interesting snippets. Like what appears to be dress regs for the Scottish units 1937 copied by a man on the dress committee. Also a B&W drawing of the Queen's York Rangers in the early 1940s in their green and purple parade uniform. Just enough to be tantilising. There is also a picture of the PPCLI in scarlet with a white puggaree with an elongated French grey diamond on the left side of the white puggaree, circa 1937 (but have to check my notes to be sure).
Did the infantry units have any dress regulations published, or was this done under unit control in Standing Orders? There seems to be so little available on the infantry but I am sure there was a proliferation of colour in the late 1930s, the Queen's York Rangers must have been quite something to behold. The Scottish papers also stated Fusilier plumes for the time noting the Irish Fusiliers with paddy green brush I think is the term.
Its also the mess dress that interests me as this seems to be a rarely photographed item, or at least rarely show in the available books but a uniform where individual unit choice seems to have had an impact.
Ah well, someday maybe.
I have seen the 'adds' for your book and am looking forward to its release. I wish you luck with it.

Sean

I did a search at our archives and we hold a microfilm copy of this research. I will get my local library to order it so that I can review it at my leisure. Thanks for this info.
As to the Wolseley with the French Grey flash. This is often seen on the khaki PPCLI helmets between the wars and an example is held by the PPCLI museum. Tracking down the many embellishments is difficult as there was no central respository for these. My research indicates that approval was obtained from the Militia District HQ but not from National Defence HQ. Unfortunately, the MD records are not complete.

I had a chance to view the Ogilby microfilm reel held by the Library & Archives Canada. They show two sketchbooks of Canadian Army units in the 1940s with some historical items included. Unfortunately, the reel is a negative (white drawings on blue background). This makes it almost impossile to get decent output from the printer and, in any event, the drawings would be better if they were in colour. Sean, you have seen the originals. Are the sketchbooks in colour or just Black & White? Do the other file boxes, to which you previously refered, hold any other Canadian information? Finally, do you know if an independant researcher can photograph the sketchbooks?
Cheers,

Clive

Hi Clive,
I cannot remember two sketch books.
There were some loose leaf illustrations of various units.
Most were incomplete but quite detailed.
The picture of the Queen's York Rangers was a revelation to me.
There would be some work involved in copying the images as they were spread between 20 boxes of information. These boxes varied between two or three pages and 100. So the work involved may be prohibitive to the staff at the National Army Museum.
You need to contact the NAM for their take on things.
When I eventually get the internet on in my new house I'll be able to send you the correct email address for the dept in the NAM.
Hope the helps

Hello Sean, I have some similar, but perhaps more specific interests in the Canadian army inisgnia. I am researching the evolution of the cloth shoulder title in the Canadian experience. (Plus research on formation, tasking, and unit patches in the Canadian army.)
Have you come across much information in relation to those insignia?

Hi Bill, welcome to the forum.
I can't say I've got a lot of info on Canadian patches. You're archives will undoubtedly be bigger than mine on the subject.
I did get a lot of info from www.canadiansoldier.com and there is a reference book on the subject, which I am trying to get a copy of.
Apart from that its sourcing pictures on the internet, mainly ebay.
Sorry I can't help more.

Below is my interpretation of the uniforms of the Canadian infantry regiments during the 1930s.
Whilst I believe most wore royal blue facings, there were those who had different colours, eg PPCLI had light blue.
Can anyone help with other facing colours, eg the Queens York Rangers?
Also are these uniforms accurate? I realise the khaki comes from pre-war stocks worn in the 1920s and the British version was prevalent in the 1930s.
Many thanks

Sean

https://i.servimg.com/u/f82/12/22/09/10/ci111.gif

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I haven't gotten very far with this question.
I have tried another forum, as mentioned above but again not a lot of luck.
A couple of private emails but no great gains in information.
I have the PPCLI with French grey facings, Mont Royal with white, Prince Louise Fusiliers with green and Winnipeg Light Infantry with dark green. And I'm not sure of these.
Everyone else in blue/dark blue/royal blue.
The Rifles are green with scarlet or black facings.
I added this picture to the Canadian forum so thought it best to add it here.
https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/12/22/09/10/cr112.gif
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If anyone can help further I would be really grateful.
The uniforms, parade and service, that most interest me are the Argyll Light Infantry and Queen's York Rangers.

Sean

Sean been 2 years ,since this was up?
Just found the site agian so hope you are still looking for info ,This period was hard in just the lack of oficial record keeping and Unit regulations and funds availalbe.
The in 1938 we formed the Canadian Armoured Corps so there 11 Infantry Regiment that were conmverted to Tank units . Several formerlay independant Regiments were almagamted ,the Queens Rangers and the York Rangers. The Dufferin and Haldiamon Regiments are just few examples ,then there is the funds available to do thre fancy extra's and ot standard fair.
Clive is far the most Knowlagable person Canadian Uniforms I know of.
I volunteer with the Ontario Regiment museum and we did have Roysl Blue facins ,since the Militia was incoraparated into an active militia unit in 1866 . We have some photo's of Totornto area officer's attending courses ,so there is some differences ,but Band W photo's are hard to interperate.
in 1938 we converted to an Armoured unit and were isued with new Black berets by 10940 the whole unit had Beret's byt in 38 maybe 1 Squadron. The unit had funds as our honurary Col . was the founder and presidant of GM Canada ,so finds were never an issue .
I do have pics of my uncle and he was an original member of the newly formed Regimnent De Chaudiere . They did have a reguer infanty alotment of royal bluw ,but had the colurs switched to Maroon, Burgundy with Silver ,But the Khki 7 button tuni he has on is just plain no special addition's till the advent of the regimental overseas cap in 1940 ,I think.
mark

Thanks Mark
Yes this thread has been around some time, didn't realise how long until you mentioned it.
I haven't gotten any further forward as I am waiting for an opportunity to go to Canada and look at the Militia Orders to see facing colour differences. That may still be some time off yet.
Your help is appreciated and I am interested in the bit on the Regt De Chaudiere. So if I've got this right they wore scarlet with maroon facings and silver buttons/badges? The Ontario Regt continued to use blue facings.
Do you know if any dress orders were published for the new infantry and tank units of 1938?
Thanks again for restarting this thread

Sean

Sean I would have tpo defer to Clive on the Order's i am just using what we have in our unit collection for refernce. The Ontario Regiment kept all the Infantry trimming's till after the war ,the only difference was the Black beret that was worn instead of the Infantry Overseas Cap or even Regomentl overseas cap's, The Regiment De Cahud ,has a museum site and it list's there colour's the official colour tags . As for that unit I only have photo's of the one uncle who served in it and they are from 1938 and 1941 . The 1938 photo's ,he is wearing a Canadian 7 button tunic -probably WW1 stock ,the other he is wearing his 37 pattern Bd and regimental overxeas cap ( which was in my possesion ,and lost in a move when i was very young) .
I am unaware of the different unit regulations being officially listed .
I will se what i can find for refernces to any militia stuff I have ,but Clive at Service publication's is the best one i know for that type trace.
Mark
P.S. will scan the photo's of uncle and post inder another heading ,to this one clear. Will get photo's of lit we have at the unit museum for the Ontario's .

Hi Sean,

I now have almost all of the Infantry entries for the 1932 DR.

Clive@servicepub.com

That is excellent news, well done