Russian or Latvian
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Re: Russian or Latvian
I personally haven’t seen any identical caps worn by the regular Soviet Army, but the image was taken from ‘Uniforms Illustrated No9, Soviet Army Uniforms of World War Two by Steven Zaloga’ and is described as ‘Cadets at one of the Military Academies wearing cloth peaked caps, headdress peculiar to these pre-war schools.’
The cloth caps are also quite similar to the caps worn by the Latvian forces, and there isn’t any clear insignia on any of the the caps, or uniforms to help with a more positive identification.
Add to that, the instructors cap badge doesn’t help.
The uniform pockets also seem to be more angled (pointed) than the Latvian pockets, but there’s also variations in Latvian pockets here (https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/pa1080698) that look the same as those of the Russian uniforms in the photo.
I haven’t any information on the uniforms of the Russian military school, so has the author made a mistake?
The cloth caps are also quite similar to the caps worn by the Latvian forces, and there isn’t any clear insignia on any of the the caps, or uniforms to help with a more positive identification.
Add to that, the instructors cap badge doesn’t help.
The uniform pockets also seem to be more angled (pointed) than the Latvian pockets, but there’s also variations in Latvian pockets here (https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/pa1080698) that look the same as those of the Russian uniforms in the photo.
I haven’t any information on the uniforms of the Russian military school, so has the author made a mistake?
wfrad- Posts : 16308
Join date : 2008-04-16
Location : Durham UK
Re: Russian or Latvian
Thanks for the nice posts Animal, they would have been great to start off a Latvian thread with.
I actually agree with you that they do look like Latvians, but there’s also nothing really to indicate that they are definitely Latvian rather than Russian schools as stated by the author.
The author went out of his was to mention the hats, and to point out that the hats were worn by military colleges and schools.
Until there’s more information regarding the schools and colleges is found, his explanation seems to be reasonable, and it seems quite possible that the schools and academias had a variation of the Budenovka that just didn’t have the pointed crown.
Admittedly, going just off the cap and instructors hat, there’s a strong indication that it’s more likely to be Latvian rather than Russian, but even then the badge on what appears to be an instructor doesn’t quite fit either Russians or Latvians, and there’s also the question about whether the schools had distinctive insignia.
Especially since the’ authors made a point of saying that the caps were part of the military academies and schools, he may have had information we don’t regarding the uniform. Your posts really confirm what I’m saying in regards to the similarity of the uniform.
I tried several searches for uniforms worn by the Russian military schools without success, and I haven’t found anything resembling the photograph, or anything on Russian military schools.
The photograph is from one of his Authors earlier books, so he could well have made a mistake, and could be wrong, but I’m also inclined, at least for now, to believe that he had done his due diligence and was going of more that one photograph.
So for me, the poor quality of the one photo isn’t enough to say that the author is wrong.
About the Author from a later Osprey book.
STEVEN J. ZALOGA was born in 1952, received his BA in history from Union College, and his MA from Columbia University. He has published numerous books and articles dealing with modern military technology, especially armoured vehicle development. His main area of interest is military affairs in the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe in the Second World War, and he has also written extensively on American armoured forces.
I actually agree with you that they do look like Latvians, but there’s also nothing really to indicate that they are definitely Latvian rather than Russian schools as stated by the author.
The author went out of his was to mention the hats, and to point out that the hats were worn by military colleges and schools.
Until there’s more information regarding the schools and colleges is found, his explanation seems to be reasonable, and it seems quite possible that the schools and academias had a variation of the Budenovka that just didn’t have the pointed crown.
Admittedly, going just off the cap and instructors hat, there’s a strong indication that it’s more likely to be Latvian rather than Russian, but even then the badge on what appears to be an instructor doesn’t quite fit either Russians or Latvians, and there’s also the question about whether the schools had distinctive insignia.
Especially since the’ authors made a point of saying that the caps were part of the military academies and schools, he may have had information we don’t regarding the uniform. Your posts really confirm what I’m saying in regards to the similarity of the uniform.
I tried several searches for uniforms worn by the Russian military schools without success, and I haven’t found anything resembling the photograph, or anything on Russian military schools.
The photograph is from one of his Authors earlier books, so he could well have made a mistake, and could be wrong, but I’m also inclined, at least for now, to believe that he had done his due diligence and was going of more that one photograph.
So for me, the poor quality of the one photo isn’t enough to say that the author is wrong.
About the Author from a later Osprey book.
STEVEN J. ZALOGA was born in 1952, received his BA in history from Union College, and his MA from Columbia University. He has published numerous books and articles dealing with modern military technology, especially armoured vehicle development. His main area of interest is military affairs in the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe in the Second World War, and he has also written extensively on American armoured forces.
wfrad- Posts : 16308
Join date : 2008-04-16
Location : Durham UK
Re: Russian or Latvian
Thanks for your input iffig.
Yes, I agree with you that they look like Latvians, although I believe that the image you’ve posted appears to be a different version of the shirts that are in the photo, which appear to be more like the standard Russian version.
After the Russian invasion there were Latvians incorporated into the Russian army, and this could have included the cadets.
My point is that it’s possible that although these look to be Latvians, they still could also part of the Russian army and not the pre-war Latvian army.
This could also account for the authors claim regarding them being Russian cadets, and also the use of Latvian uniforms.
Another could be that the author had more information regarding the uniforms of Russian Academies/schools that’s not freely available on google.
During the war their were Latvians on both sides, and both the Soviets and the Germans committed atrocities against those who opposed them.
Germans wore and used Soviet uniforms and equipment and vice versa, and it’s would also be logical for military schools to use up old stock piles or whatever is available.
Or even just a proper gander stunt.
All I’m saying is that it’s possible that they could be some of the Latvians who were part of the Russian army, and without further information regarding the academies and schools, I believe it’s not possible to say for certain who they are.
I’m also not saying that it isn’t the wrong imaged that’s been used, I’m just not sure that it has.
I know it’s all pure speculation, but it wasn’t exactly a stable period of history when make do with what you can get seemed to be common for all sides.
I’ve failed miserably to find more information about academies and schools, the best I could come up with is the image below, which doesn’t really help.
Yes, I agree with you that they look like Latvians, although I believe that the image you’ve posted appears to be a different version of the shirts that are in the photo, which appear to be more like the standard Russian version.
After the Russian invasion there were Latvians incorporated into the Russian army, and this could have included the cadets.
My point is that it’s possible that although these look to be Latvians, they still could also part of the Russian army and not the pre-war Latvian army.
This could also account for the authors claim regarding them being Russian cadets, and also the use of Latvian uniforms.
Another could be that the author had more information regarding the uniforms of Russian Academies/schools that’s not freely available on google.
During the war their were Latvians on both sides, and both the Soviets and the Germans committed atrocities against those who opposed them.
Germans wore and used Soviet uniforms and equipment and vice versa, and it’s would also be logical for military schools to use up old stock piles or whatever is available.
Or even just a proper gander stunt.
All I’m saying is that it’s possible that they could be some of the Latvians who were part of the Russian army, and without further information regarding the academies and schools, I believe it’s not possible to say for certain who they are.
I’m also not saying that it isn’t the wrong imaged that’s been used, I’m just not sure that it has.
I know it’s all pure speculation, but it wasn’t exactly a stable period of history when make do with what you can get seemed to be common for all sides.
I’ve failed miserably to find more information about academies and schools, the best I could come up with is the image below, which doesn’t really help.
wfrad- Posts : 16308
Join date : 2008-04-16
Location : Durham UK
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