Re: Civil Police in Occupied Countries during WW2

wfrad Mon 02 Nov 2009, 2:06 am

Hi Les,
Like Chris has pointed out, a great many translations us the American ranks as a guide, No one has imformed them that God was an Englishman, well maybe.
The problem with translations is that English is bits of every language you can think of and translates into none of them easily.
I have a couple of translations of Polish ranks, guess what, they differ as to what’s an ensign and what’s a warrant officer.
Even NATO are unable to give exact comparisons grouping some ranks into the same grade so I can understand why authors make their own comparisons.
And just to be a complete pain I’ve added some links, army, to compare and confuse further!
To be honest Les, I spend more time trying to find the correct translation than actually doing the illustration only to find out there’s yet another translation. I'm also aware that comparing army ranks doesn't really help you, only gives a guide line.
Have fun!

For the early seventies one set:
Lance corporal – one bar.
Corporal – two bars,
Lance sergeant – three bars,
Sergeant – braid around strap and one chevron,
Senior sergeant – braid around strap two chevrons,
Staff sergeant – braid around strap one chevron above bar,
Senior staff sergeant – braid around strap two chevrons above bar,
Junior warrant officer – braid around strap with chevron and star,
Warrant officer – braid around strap with star and no chevron,
Senior WO – braid around strap two stars,
Staff WO – braid around strap three stars,
Senior staff WO– braid around strap four stars,

The second set:
Lance corporal – one bar,
Corporal sergeant – two bars,
Platoon NCO – three bars,
CSM – four bars [this grade is missing in the first set].
Sergeant major – braid around strap and one chevron,
Staff sergeant major – braid around strap two chevrons,
Staff battalion – braid around strap one chevron above bar,
Sergeant major – braid around strap two chevrons above bar,
Sub ensign – braid around strap with chevron and star,
Ensign – braid around strap with star and no chevron,
First ensign – braid around strap two stars,
Staff ensign – braid around strap three stars,
Staff first ensign – braid around strap four stars,

http://www.uniforminsignia.net/?option=com_insigniasearch&Itemid=53&result=2292

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Polish-Armed-Forces-rank-insignia

Les-Art Mon 02 Nov 2009, 4:42 am

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the input. I agree that translating titles into English language is always difficult, but I suppose you have to start somewhere wether you speak US English or UK English, I'm sure you will go with what you know best.
The English translation titles came from someone whos' native language is Polish ,so he may have had some difficulty finding the right titles to use, however as I stated previously the structure is in the right order and the illustrations are correct. On Wikipedia they have the Military rank of Junior Warrant Officer as being the same as the one I have shown as an Ensign. So I would just change the titile to Junior Warrant Officer and leave it there.

It's good to know that there are obvious mistakes on the uniforminsignia.org, thought it was just me that noticed the problems.

I do notice mistakes on Wikipedia, which a lot of people take as being the 'be all and end all' of information. I will stick to my usual form of three seperate sources and make up my own mind as to what is correct Very Happy

When doing rank charts I think it is more important to get the sequence and illustrations correct from lowest to highest, which I prefer, and to show where the Offcier level starts. Then the viewer can make up there own minds to what to call everything.

Best Regards,
Les

ChrisF202 Mon 02 Nov 2009, 5:03 am

When doing rank charts I think it is more important to get the sequence and illustrations correct from lowest to highest, which I prefer, and to show where the Offcier level starts. Then the viewer can make up there own minds to what to call everything.

Sounds about right to me Les!

Ive noticed that in some languages, no 2 sources are alike but at least we can try and get the exact details of what it's supposed to look like.

RagePaintedSky Wed 04 Nov 2009, 6:56 am

Rank equivalence is often a difficult subject to deal with, even commanding the language it's sometimes difficult to figure out if the function performed in both armies or corps is the same when scales have different amount of ranks. I agree, the sensible decision is to get information from various sources and draw your own conclusions.
Anyway the ranks chart is great, thanks for the effort and for sharing it...
Regards

Felip

wfrad Wed 04 Nov 2009, 10:31 am

Les
This link was sent to me by Sarge Booker, not directly connected to the thread but may be of interest as a general police uniform study.
Since I know '0' about police uniforms I'll let you decide.
Under costumes gallery: http://www.fxha.com/

Regards
WF

Les-Art Sun 08 Nov 2009, 1:33 pm

Hi Guys,
Came across this photo which seems a little odd. Does anyone know of any incidents where German Troops dressed in civil police uniforms to take part in operations against resistance groups or for any reason other than 'having a laugh for the camera'.

https://i.servimg.com/u/f88/13/98/25/75/german11.jpg
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Here is the description that came with the photo in French, I used an online translator to put it into English;

Un groupe de soldats allemands avec deux civils dont quatre déguisés.
Ce sont des soldats de la Wehrmacht (bottes et pantalons), vraisemblablement au tout début de l'occupation (calot et tenue de corvée au second plan). Les quatre à l'avant-plan se sont déguisés avec des éléments d'uniformes de la Gendarmerie belge: casquettes pour tous, vestes pour deux et manteau pour l'un. Le sous-officier au centre à gardé sa vareuse (les deux bandes à l'avant-bras indique sa fonction de Spiess (adjudant de compagnie) qu'il a décoré d'une fourragère de gendarme, sa pèlerine n'est pas d'origine allemande.

A group of German soldiers with two civilians including four disguised.
They are soldiers of the Wehrmacht (boots and trousers), probably with the whole beginning of the occupation (stone-block and fatigue dress with the second row). The four in the foreground were disguised with elements of uniforms of the Belgian Gendarmerie: caps for all, jackets for two and coat for one. The warrant officer in the centre has kept his jacket (the two bands with the front armlever indicates his function of Spiess (adjudant of company) which it decorated with aiguillettes of a gendarme, the cloak is not German origin.

The translator didn't get everything correct ,as they don't do well with military terms, but I think the general description is understandable.

So comments please ,as to what night be going on in this photo.

Best Regards,
Les

Les-Art Sat 14 Nov 2009, 5:12 am

Hi Guys,
This must be one of the most amazing photos ever taken . If the description is accurate someone had the foresight to record this piece of history.

'Dutch Police issue firearms from their Station to aid in the resistance to the invasion , 29th August 1940'
https://i.servimg.com/u/f88/13/98/25/75/august10.jpg
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Check out the calender on the wall, 29th August, so this would depict the 'actual' moment that these guys were rushing to get them selves into action to defend their country.
Of additional interest is the style of uniform which is very similar to a 'English Bobby'. Helmet in the background on the cabinet is a ceremonial version.
I don't know what town this is in , so if anyone recognises the insignias, let us all know.

As usual, comments are welcomed.

Best Regards,
Les

ChrisF202 Sat 14 Nov 2009, 9:20 am

^ are those civil police or are they from the Royal Marechausee?

Here is another picture of WWII Dutch police:
http://www.corbisimages.com/images/HU037332.jpg?size=67&uid=D516ED4E-ADC0-4BD7-948C-A4DC7E12617C
^ purportedly of Dutch police in the UK that escaped from the German invasion forces at Dunkirk.

Les-Art Sat 14 Nov 2009, 2:10 pm

The guys in the photo wearing 'Bobby' helmets are municipal/city police called 'GeemtePolitie' in Dutch.

The Corbis photo taken somewhere in England after the fall of Dunkirk does indeed show the Royal Constabulary - 'Koninklijke Marechaussee' in Dutch. They came over with Dutch Army ,as they are the Military Police contingent and continued in that role where ever the remnantants of their army were based.
It is unusual to see them wearing sidecaps as the Kepi was the more usual headgear, but expect they just wore what was still available.

Best Regards,
Les

Les-Art Fri 20 Nov 2009, 7:54 am

Guys,
This photo apparently shows the Danish Police defending a hastily made baracade in an unknown city 1940. Not sure if this description is totally accurate. Could this be later in the war or even a post war riot of some kind, any one out there know anything about Denmark and it's Police uniforms during and immediately after the war.

https://i.servimg.com/u/f88/13/98/25/75/denmar11.jpg
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Of note are the Military issue helmets, which appear to be gloss painted and the very shiny leather belts and boots. Very smart uniform.

The style of the helmet corresponds with a photo I have seen of the Danish Army in 1940 awaiting the german invasion. However ex-military equipmemet has been used for many years by police forces all over the world years after they were issued to the Armies of those countries. So it still doesn't help with dating the picture.

Comment if you like.
Has no one out there got any other photos to share that fit in with this thread. What about the police in Czechosovakia, Hungary, Yugoslavia, and other European countries occupied by the German Army. There must be photos out there of the French Colonies under the Vicht Regime or even countries occupied by the Japanese. Have a look through your files or the internet and see if we can keep this thread going for a little longer.

Best Regards,
Les

Greatscott Fri 20 Nov 2009, 4:35 pm

Oh common guys

!0th of May 1940 was when the invasion started not the 29th if August

ChrisF202 Sat 21 Nov 2009, 1:39 am

http://www.jewishjournal.com/images/articles/art_beingjewishfrance_07310.jpg
^Vichy French Surete Nationale

http://judicial-inc.biz/French11.jpg
^ Vichy French Gendarmerie Nationale

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/312507-2/img122
^ German Eastern Auxiliary Police (Estonia, Latvia, etc)

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/articles/tonnesson/images/quisling.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_NE-72ZXux-g/SpOG7zm0EiI/AAAAAAAAKqg/FCYxua37lBo/s400/ns-quisling-insp-gssn.jpg
Norwegian Quisling Police

Les-Art Sat 21 Nov 2009, 7:16 am

Hi Chris,
Thanks for these photos.
It's a pity they are so small, but at least it helps to keep the thread going.
The one listed as Vichy French of the three men outside the Gendarmerie Nationale building ,look more Belgian than French, I'll have another study at the photo and see if I can enlarge it.

Best Regards,
Les

ChrisF202 Sat 21 Nov 2009, 7:24 am

Les-Art wrote:Hi Chris,
Thanks for these photos.
It's a pity they are so small, but at least it helps to keep the thread going.
The one listed as Vichy French of the three men outside the Gendarmerie Nationale building ,look more Belgian than French, I'll have another study at the photo and see if I can enlarge it.

Best Regards,
Les

Agreed, I thought the same thing however the Belgian Gendarmerie was called the Rijkswacht but it was also called the Gendarmerie in the French speaking parts of Belgium.

On a second glance, they are definitely Belgian Gendarmerie. Here's a picture taken in 1947 of a Rijkswacht gendarme from Wikipedia - the uniform is almost identical to what is in the picture I posted before:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rijkswachter_26-02-2008_17-49-00.jpg

Animal Mon 23 Nov 2009, 7:00 pm

Here's a couple pics from a re-enactment of the 1945 Prague Uprising.

The first photo I believe depicts a member of the Prague city police in the forefront.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

And this one has 2 Protectorate Gendarmerie re-enactors.

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Les-Art Fri 21 May 2010, 11:52 pm

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https://i.servimg.com/u/f68/13/98/25/75/nether10.jpg

Les-Art Fri 21 May 2010, 11:53 pm

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https://i.servimg.com/u/f68/13/98/25/75/nether11.jpg

Les-Art Fri 21 May 2010, 11:54 pm

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https://i.servimg.com/u/f68/13/98/25/75/polish10.jpg

Greatscott Sun 23 May 2010, 4:39 pm

Great stuff - keep it comming - I'll try and find some local stuff to add

Niels Mon 24 May 2010, 6:16 pm

Les-Art wrote:Guys,
The Picture is of danish police , who guarded the Royal Palace Amalienborg, in Copenhagen. They took over the guard after the LIfe guard. This as the army and navy was taken by the Germans the 29 august 1943. The danish defence forces had exsisted in a very limited form since the occupation of Denmark the 9th of april 1940. The Germans launched Operation Möwe the 19th september 1944, the plan was to take most of the danish police, but due to a misunderstanding the guard at the palace was attaceked, and they defende themselvs and the castel. Ca. 2000 police were capyured that day ad send to KZ-camps in Germany.
The 20 of september 1944 HIPO (Hilfspolizei) was created, it cosisted of ca. 500 all ranks. They were very brutal and also criminal, thy were rounde up at the liberation and the worst were excecuted.
The uniforms shown on the picture, is the common police uniform with the danish steel helmet in a lighter police type, this was shiny black with the police badge in the front, The badge was gold.
There exsistis very few pictures of HIPO, som of the best is shown on this page.
Best regards
Niels (danish)
This photo apparently shows the Danish Police defending a hastily made baracade in an unknown city 1940. Not sure if this description is totally accurate. Could this be later in the war or even a post war riot of some kind, any one out there know anything about Denmark and it's Police uniforms during and immediately after the war.

https://i.servimg.com/u/f88/13/98/25/75/denmar11.jpg
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Of note are the Military issue helmets, which appear to be gloss painted and the very shiny leather belts and boots. Very smart uniform.

The style of the helmet corresponds with a photo I have seen of the Danish Army in 1940 awaiting the german invasion. However ex-military equipmemet has been used for many years by police forces all over the world years after they were issued to the Armies of those countries. So it still doesn't help with dating the picture.

Comment if you like.
Has no one out there got any other photos to share that fit in with this thread. What about the police in Czechosovakia, Hungary, Yugoslavia, and other European countries occupied by the German Army. There must be photos out there of the French Colonies under the Vicht Regime or even countries occupied by the Japanese. Have a look through your files or the internet and see if we can keep this thread going for a little longer.

Best Regards,
Les

Les-Art Sat 12 Jun 2010, 6:11 am

Hi Guys,
Found this photo of a group of re-inactors dressed in the uniforms of Polish and Czech Police.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
https://i.servimg.com/u/f68/13/98/25/75/bzura110.jpg
The man in the centre is a Polish Policeman, which have already been discussed in this thread, the two men flanking him represent the Czechoslovakian Protectorate Police. I am finding out more about this force and will post more details later.
So far it would appear that the cap was used in the Cities and the helmet was used in the country. The fact that one has black boots and the other brown falls into the differences in the German Police uniforms of the time. Brown being given to the Gendarmerie units used in the country areas, he also has full rifle equipment again falling into this category.
As shown in a previous post the City Police wore Black uniforms.

Still searching for more info on the other occupied countries.
Best Regards,
Les

Les-Art Sat 12 Jun 2010, 6:22 am

Just found this photo of the German forces entering the City of Prague
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https://i.servimg.com/u/f68/13/98/25/75/prague10.jpg
Of note here is the four City Policemen in greatcoats and helmets standing in front of the welcoming? crowd.

The Helmets used by the Czechoslovak Police are unique and have never been copied by any other country, I found some good photos of a museum with original uniforms , so I'll compile them onto a page and post them soon.

Les

Les-Art Sat 21 Aug 2010, 12:45 am

Hi Guys,
Found this photo on Flickr ,I think, and thought it was interesting in showing you the various types of uniforms used in 1945 when this photo was reportedly taken.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
https://i.servimg.com/u/f38/13/98/25/75/denmar10.jpg

The man on the right would seem to be military but I don't know enough about the Danish military uniforms to comments on what he might be.

The uniform hasn't changed much over the years.

Regards,
Les

Les-Art Sat 21 Aug 2010, 1:04 am

I found some images of the uniforms used during WW2 in the czech Police museum website and thought you might like to see them.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
https://i.servimg.com/u/f38/13/98/25/75/f1849010.jpg
This clearly shows the helmet and the badge. One helmet would seem to be a rank of some type as it has stars to either side of the helmet plate, the other helmet has red behind part of the badge.
In the foreground right there appears to be an official document showing the uniforms, possibly rank structure and placement on uniform.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
https://i.servimg.com/u/f38/13/98/25/75/f1848710.jpg
This shows the other police force uniforms for rural areas. The helmet is clearly more basic and the badge is similar to the design used after the communists left, so certainly historical. With this photo and the reinactors one shown previously the uniform details are all there.

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https://i.servimg.com/u/f38/13/98/25/75/image310.jpg
This a ceremony to honour all the Czech Police Offciers killed during WW2. Reinactors flank a current uniformed police officer.
Of special interest is the collar patches on the nearest helmeted policeman which show two stars to match the two stars on his helmet.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
https://i.servimg.com/u/f38/13/98/25/75/image311.jpg
Another view of the same ceremony. This time note that the right has one star on his helmet and one star on his collar. The back view of the Protectorate Police officer showns his shoulder and cap ranks.

Best Regards,
Les

Niels Sat 21 Aug 2010, 7:22 pm

Hi Les
Tis is I think, a Police Group of the Resistance partly civilian police. They are part of a bigger unit commanded by an Army officer, he is wearing the pre war Uniform M/1923 which is khaki, on his left arm he wear the Resistance brassard. The M/1923 uniform were modified in 1947 to M/47 very much lieke the previous uniform, but with an open collar. The M/47 uniform was in use until 1969 where the new uniform M/69 was taken in use. The M/69 consist of a Dark green jacket and grey/green trousers, and the special Danish "spidshue" also see on the picture, but now in green and silver, this head dress only allowed for NCO`s and Officers. Other ranks have a green or for infantryand cavallery (tank) a black beret. To-day only generals wear flat cap today, also green and with a silver band. The spidshue with the intoduction of the M/47 uniform was only worn by ´the Royal Lifeguard with a Tassel in the front (which they still have) and by the Gardehusar and Dragon Regiments, by all other units Officers and NCO`s wore flat cap with differen front badge for Officers and NCO`s, the caps where in khaki with a silver band.
The picture I thin is take in the yard of the police head quater (Politigården) in Copenhagen.
Rgds
Niels

Les-Art wrote:Hi Guys,
Found this photo on Flickr ,I think, and thought it was interesting in showing you the various types of uniforms used in 1945 when this photo was reportedly taken.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
https://i.servimg.com/u/f38/13/98/25/75/denmar10.jpg

The man on the right would seem to be military but I don't know enough about the Danish military uniforms to comments on what he might be.

The uniform hasn't changed much over the years.

Regards,
Les

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Civil Police in Occupied Countries during WW2