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White gloves by Infantry NCOs

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White gloves by Infantry NCOs Empty White gloves by Infantry NCOs

Post  pedroalfonso Mon 24 Jan 2022, 5:20 am

Gentlemen,

I have seen in several pictures and photographs as of 1890s (Simkim, Payne,...) that Infantry NCOs of the rank of sergeant and above wore white gloves for review order (black for Rifles) but form Clothing Regulations 1883 these articles of dress were onfly stated for cavalrymen, mounted personnel and Foot Guards NCOs.

Do you know when they were introduced for such ranks in Infantry? And, in Which Regulation?

Thanks a lot

Pedro

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Post  wfrad Fri 28 Jan 2022, 11:16 am

Not much help but this is what I believe to be the case;
Dates I'm unable to give, gloves could be worn for walking out in uniform, parades, by bandsmen and also in Full Dress/No1 Dress Winter Order.
Although they may also be worn in summer depending on the duty requirements. For example by bandsmen on a civic duty or mess call.
Try having another look under winter dress, in regimental regulations.

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White gloves by Infantry NCOs Empty Gloves for infantry NCOs

Post  BlueTrain Sun 10 Apr 2022, 10:22 pm

This is going to be vague, because I can't give an exact answer to the question as to when gloves were introduced for infantry sergeants. Here I'm only referring to gloves, not 'mitts' (worsted mitts in the regulations, that is, mittens). According to circulars from around 1800, mitts were apparently provided (by stoppages from pay) at home, meaning in the UK. No mention of gloves in those circulars.

However, by 1806, perhaps later, serjeants (as it was spelled) of foot guards were issued with a pair of buck or doe skin gloves annually. No mention of color but presumed to be white. Note that they were issued and not listed with the 'necessaries,' which they had to pay for themselves. It should not be assumed that the regulations were strictly adhered to or that local customs no different. The regulations were quite complicated and it's difficult to get an accurate picture of what was actually provided.

According to the Collection of Warrants and Regulations published in 1844, that was still the case regarding gloves for sergeants. Only in the foot guards were gloves issued. The general arrangements for the army were still the same, everything based on a colonel receiving 'off-reckoning", which remained for another two or three decades. None of this should be taken to mean that sergeants in other regiments or corps did not also wear gloves, but they aren't mentioned in the regulations. Same for the lower ranks. On this note, it would be interesting to establish when the concept of "walking-out dress" became established. For most of the 19th century in practically all armies, there was only one uniform for the other ranks, although there was a lot of variation for senior NCOs. Some, however, did have by the end of the century, different orders of dress for barrack dress, working dress, field dress and parade dress.

Current regulations are even more complicated but at least they're easier to find.

Light cavalry were issued gloves (two pair, no less), except lancers received gauntlets. Heavy cavalry received gauntlets, too.

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Post  wfrad Tue 12 Apr 2022, 8:12 am

I agree with you about the modern regulation BlueTrain, having both the officer's and OR's together, certainly makes things easier to find.
I don't know it this will be of interest/use.
In the 1936 clothing regulation you should find gloves mentioned under NECESSARIES rather than in the personal issue.
Gloves or gauntlets tend to mentioned more often when describing cavalry rather than when describing infantry, gloves just don't seem to be worth mentioning, yet for the soldier they could often be just as essential as boots.

Even some of the best authorities on the subject seem to skip mentioning gloves, even when describing their own illustrations that are wearing gloves.  

British Napoleonic Uniforms - Franklin, also doesn't bother to give any detailed information regarding the subject of gloves for infantry.
"Gloves
Worsted gloves of battalion pattern were issued to all ranks. Officers and NCOs wore white leather for dress."  

W. Carman.
"Gloves have been worn from the earliest days to protect the soldier's hand from harm by weapons, including their own.  Officers in the late 17th century found gloves useful when the enveloping hand guard could chafe. Pikemen with long unwieldy pikes wore gloves to avoid splinters, cavalrymen found stout leather gauntlets a safeguard with reins and as a protection against sword cuts.  In the 18th century officers gloves were known to have been ornamented with regimental devices, Gloves for parade purposes in the 19th century were elegant with rifle officers wearing black, leather for officers and woollen for men. In the 2oth century warfare made khaki gloves a  necessity and the introduction of the motor cycle brought about a stout leather gauntlet. Gloves are
also permitted in modern times for all soldiers when walking out."

A History of the Uniforms of the British Army -Lawson.
It mentions gloves more in the first volume (pre 1700) than in any of the other four volumes.  One mention of the infantry wearing gloves is for Wellingtons army , "There are several French prints of grenadiers in fur caps; one is of the 3rd Foot Guards wearing green gloves."

British Military Uniforms 1776-96, Dress of the British Army From Official Sources - Strachan 1975.
"Article XXI.
Officers and Serjeants should never appear under arms without gloves the colour of the accoutrements, as their hands must look extremely aukward and naked without them on such occasions."

19th November 1794. The commanding Officers of Companies to furnish Royal Artillery.  Woolwich their men with worsted gloves the Battalion pattern. Garrison Orders. W.O. 55/677.

10th November 1796. The Officers commanding Companies and Royal Artillery. Woolwich detachments to see that their men are provided with Garrison Orders. W.O. flannel shirts and worsted stockings conformable to 55/677. garrison orders; they are also to be supplied with gloves
of the same pattern [worsted] as those of last year.

Even in most of the Osprey books, they don't overdo the subject of gloves, although they do get the occasional mention.
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The walking out uniform, the best way that I could describe it (which may not be correct) would be more of less the barrack dress, that most soldier would have worn when, or if, they were allowed out of the barracks.  After all, during the 19th century it was common practice for soldiers to wear uniform outside of the barracks, many of them couldn't afford to wear anything else but their uniform.  Changing what they called it, to suit the purpose it was being used for, maybe also adding a white belt and gloves.

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White gloves by Infantry NCOs Empty Sergeants on parade

Post  BlueTrain Fri 10 Jun 2022, 3:48 am

I happened to notice in the recent full-length (and without narration) Trooping of the Color (2022) that in the foot guards on parade, the sergeants did not necessarily wear white gloves. But the more senior NCOs did, if they were at the end of the rank. The other ranks and the plain sergeants mixed in among the soldiers clearly did not. Naturally, that still doesn't answer the original question but at least shows that for parades and reviews when in full dress, the custom is a little mixed. It really only seems that way, however, when you're studying various regiments over a long period of time. When you're actually in the service, you have everything down pat and you easily keep up with the changes as they happen, which happen with some frequency, if not regularity. Moreover, you probably had no interest in anything historical.

The gloves themselves, incidentally, as used by the foot guards, I believe are knitted or 'worsted.' Not leather, but even so, I wouldn't be surprised if white leather gloves might be used sometime by someone somewhere.

I don't know what they might do in greatcoat order.

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